That's fine, as far as I'm concerned, because I think the New Testament text typically reflects that Jesus--typically speaking to a Jewish audience about Jewish tradition and Jewish "law," quoted Hebrew sources and traditions and sayings so as to either expound upon or challenge the sources, traditions or sayings. But I have never done much (any?) study on that subject (whether and how Jesus quoted Hillel in the New Testament), so I did a quick search today and came upon this interesting blog post. Random Observations: Celebrating Pesach Seder; Notes on Hillel, Jesus, and the Golden Rule. The whole post is worthwhile, but I thought this was a poignant observation in the beginning of the post:
"Last night I was honored to be invited to join Jewish friends in celebrating the the Pesach Seder, the Passover feast. The Seder is the basis of the Christian idea of communion -- it is this meal that Christians refer to as 'the last supper'. . . .Christians believe this was also a 'type' (physical representation) of things to come . . . among those who accept Jesus as the [M]essiah, this act is a procla[]mation of the forgiveness available through his death.This is an irony that has struck me before in a couple conversations with nm (who seems to represent the views of many modern-day Jewish believers). I don't think that such conversations are a waste, but like my undergrad "Bible as Literature" course, such exercises are fairly limited in their usefulness. You can certainly learn from history and from literature, but . . .
My friends are, shall we say, rather toward the liberal end of the Jew[i]sh belief spectrum. At one point a young participant asserted the bit about expecting Elijah's return was wrong, and nonsense. There was hearty agreement around the table, but it was observed that what we were doing was a tradition, and we should continue anyway.
That created an interesting kind of mental dissonance for me: Here I am, the only non-Jew at the seder, and I might also be the only one around this table who actually believes most of this stuff."
23 comments:
Gee, Ned, your "I found something interesting about Hillel and Jesus" actually turns out to be "Jews don't really believe in anything"? And you invited me over here specifically to see that? Thanks for sharing.
Well, that wasn't my intent; my observation about the Hillel and Jesus post was more of an aside (that happened to have more sizzle than the central subject).
And I didn't say, "Jews don't believe in anything," I know many who do. And I really don't know where you come down on any of the supernatural claims of the Jewish faith (though I'm interested to hear your opinion).
I guess the fact that the Jewish race/nation has its own religion and own country and rich (and ongoing) history kind of complicates the issue, but don't you think it is ironic that Evangelical Christians typically believe more of the Hebrew faith's assertions than most Jews believe?
How can you even say that?! What kind of hubris does a person have to be walking around with to even assert such nonsense?
First, I don't believe that you or most Evangelical Christians even know what "the Hebrew faith" asserts. Second, I don't believe that you have any basis to make the claim that y'all believe more of those assertions than most Jews. Third, "kind of complicates" the issues? Kind of? You think, Ned?
You think the fact that your faith is built on, at best, a selective application of certain Jewish foundational texts as filtered through 2,000 years of hoping that Paul is right about whether Gentiles can be Christian kind of complicates the issues?
Gah.
Y'all, Christians, have a tendency, and you specifically are doing it right here, to act like insecure stepchildren, always running around trying to convince everybody that God is as much your Daddy as He is the Daddy of the Jews and, in fact, that God loves you more, because, unlike those Jews, who are just tied to God by a covenant reached between them and honored for thousands of years, y'all really believe.
Your God is NM's God (I presume, unless one is an impostor of the other) in a tribal sense (not intending that term to be derogatory), in the sense that He is their God and they are His people in their very flesh and blood.
Don't you get it? It doesn't matter if Jewish people are all secretly atheists or if they all break every commandment they can find; that doesn't undo the visceral nature of their relationship to God.
These are folks who have God over for dinner, who laugh at Him when he's being ridiculous, and who fight with Him when He's wrong.
They don't have to prove to you or to anyone that they are God's people because it's just a fact (in the way that religious matters can be a fact).
You start questioning whether Jews love God enough--as if the Jews have the same arrangement with God as you Christians do--and you're going to look like a cruel and foolish jerk.
Ned, I have friends descended from believing Christians. They "celebrate Christman" by having a tree and giving presents; they often crack "baby Jesus" jokes (while opening the presents) that make it clear that they are not believers. I conclude from this that they are not believers. But using your logic, I guess I ought to conclude that (1) most Christians don't believe in Jesus, (2) Jews know much, much better than any Christians what Christians believe, and (3) Jews have the right to make fun of people who call themselves Christian for not believing what we tell them they ought to.
Ned, I used to think that you were being offensive through ignorance. I still think it's possible that you write so badly that you really meant to write something other than what you wrote. But really -- you guess that the fact that my religion has its own history complicates the question? Only for those who insist on not accepting my history. And that, Ned, is offensive through deliberation. I'm through talking to you.
nm,
I don't know whether I'd rather be viewed as ignorant or as a terrible writer, but I reject the label "offensive" simply because I disagree with you.
No, your analogy isn't right. The fact that someone is not atheist, not Muslim, not Hindu, or not Jewish and has attended meetings at a Christian building at various times over the years does not make him or her a "Christian." That's a little different than with Jews (because "Christian" isn't a physical or racial quality), but I would submit that the God of what we call the Old Testament is very concerned about "faith" and "belief."
But I admit that asserting that "most Jews" believe less of the supernatural claims of the Jewish faith was sloppy. I'm kind of going on my experience and with the examples of Jews that I see in modern culture; you still haven't weighed in on supernatural assertions of the Jewish faith, but I am open to refutation (and wouldn't be surprised to learn I'm wrong) on the point that a majority or most Jews eschew the supernatural claims of the Jewish faith.
This is a serious question, but would you say that going through a religious ceremony (without "faith") suffice for faith? Do you think that having a history, or a rich tradition, alone, substantiates a religion's authority or makes it more worthy of belief/reliance?
That's an interesting perspective, AuntB. And I'm interested to hear nm's opinion on it (if s/he comes back).
I will concede that I have a limited (as far as I would say) knowledge of Judaism, and that what I do know is filtered through a Christian worldview, but my point went more to the issue of racial Jews believing what the Jewish faith asserts.
But I think what we call the Old Testament asserts that every person born to a Jewish parent (or parents?) is not necessarily going to be "redeemed" or "saved" from destruction.
I found these verses with a quick search:
A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the Mighty God. For though your people, O Israel, may be like the sand of the sea, Only a remnant within them will return. (Isaiah 10:21-22)
I don't know anything about this writer or this site, but the following assertions are consistent with what I've always been taught or observed from Scripture This writer points out,
To be an Israelite, a member of the Chosen People, does not guarantee membership in the Remnant People. Mere birth among the tribes of Jacob and circumcision of the body determine nothing about one's soul. There are two circumcisions. The first one, a male has no choice about, for he receives it at eight days old and enters into the Covenant People. The second one, he (or any woman) has complete choice in. And he must exercise that choice to enter into the Remnant People: Circumcise then your heart. (Deuteronomy 10:16; cf. 30:6)
I will punish all who are circumcised and yet uncircumcised--all the house of Israel are uncircumcised of heart. (Jeremiah 9:25-26)
What's intriguing to consider is what it means to "be punished." Is it eternal or temporal? But even if it is only referring to a temporal punishment, it seems clear that God expects "belief."
What the heck?
Ned, first of all, Passover has to do with Exodus and nothing remotely about what you posted.
Secondly, a person is considered Jewish if s/he has a Jewish mother in the Conservative and Orthodox movements, and either parent in Reform.
I am baffled about the way you perceive Jews to look at the old Testament, since that IS Judaism.
The foundation of Judaism is Torah.
What is Torah? The first five books of the old testament. There
are oral laws,613 commandments,Tanya, Talmud, Midrash, and numerous other studies that are parts of Judaism, but the foundation is Torah. 100 percent. Anyone who says differently is like a Christian saying s/he is a Christian but doesn't believe in Jesus.
Now when you talk about punishment, it's more like karma. We definitely believe in karma, though not in the Buddhist sense.
So we have Torah at the foundation, but Tikum Olam (Healing the world) and Mitzvot(good deeds)standing on that foundation. In other words, those of us who are observant Jews see Judaism as a verb, and no matter what is going on in our lives, we try to do something good for someone else every single day of our lives.
You said, "don't you think it is ironic that Evangelical Christians typically believe more of the Hebrew faith's assertions than most Jews believe?"
How many people do you know who call themselves Christians actually practice it every day? Those people who do are the minority. The same applies in Judaism. I am modern Orthodox, with is pretty darn observant,but we are only about 15 percent. (And I'm including the ultra Orthodox in that figure)
Let me give you a pretty good site to go to where you can learn about Judaism: www.JewFaq.org.
Feel free to email me if you have sincere questions about Judaism.
Jews have contributed much to Christianity. Jesus - for one.
One orthodox Jew I know once refered to Christianity as a 'Johnny-come-lately' religion that had little credibilty.
Pam,
You weren't talking with a real Orthodox Jew if he/she actually said that.
LaShon Hara (unfortunately used a lot in the blogosphere) is one of the biggest sins a person can commit.
I am so sensitive to it, it literally makes me physically ill.
It translate as the evil tongue. When people gossip and talk falsely and intentionally try to cause pain to another by what they say, that's Lashon Hara. It is so great of a sin, that it is one of the few where on Rosh Hashanah, we don't have to forgive anyone of it. (Stupidly, I forgave a few people of it just a few weeks ago on Rosh Hashanah, and got sucker punched last week by them. I won't be making that mistake again, but I digress...)
No real Orthodox Jew would say,"Christianity as a 'Johnny-come-lately' religion that had little credibilty."
Ned---
I'm under Doctor's orders to stay away from stress, and I can feel my blood pressure rising just thinking about people who speak evil to hurt others, so I won't head back over here for a few weeks, but would love to continue the conversation with you in email or by phone if you're interested in learning about this.
Thanks for all the info, Sharon, I know precious little about Judaism.
And perhaps the term "observant Jew" is related to my question/point. I agree that calling oneself a Christian is different than practicing a faith. But unlike Judaism, Christianity is merely a religious system, so someone can hardly call him or herself a Christian if they are eschewing all the religious aspects of the term. And by "religious aspects" I mean the supernatural, faith-oriented aspects of the system.
Perhaps the portion of those Jews who aren't in your 15% but who still observe some aspects of Judaism are engaged in a cultural/historical ritual more than a religious one. Is that the way you would phrase it?
Oh, and I responded before reading your last comment, Sharon . . . I hope you're feeling better quickly and appreciate the offer to discuss this subject further.
Funny, as a Jew I find the only parts of the Old Testament Christians know are six or seven commandments, and the part about homosexuality.
The rest you choose to ignore.
Like what?
Let's see. We'll start with the easy ones that are pretty clear in their meaning:
"These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat. And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you"
"the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work"
"Therefore shall ye lay up these my words ... upon the door posts of thine house"
Anonymous,
The New Testament is chock full of explanations of why Judaic law doesn't govern Believers in Christ. Now, you may think, "how convenient" but I didn't make up Christianity, so . . .
Re. the Sabbath, here's some of what Jesus said on the subject from Luke 14. After healing--on the Sabbath, a man suffering from dropsy, Jesus could tell that the Jewish leaders were uncomfortable:
3And Jesus answered and spoke to the (B)lawyers and Pharisees, saying, "(C)Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath, or not?"
4But they kept silent. And He took hold of him and healed him, and sent him away.
5And He said to them, "(D)Which one of you will have a son or an ox fall into a well, and will not immediately pull him out on a Sabbath day?"
Re. scriptures on doorposts, that falls under Judaic law. But I'll say that I do my best to honor the Sabbath by resting and we have Scripture verses displayed all over our house to remind us of God's truths . . . which is the point of the law anyway, right?
Here's another example from Luke 13 of how Jesus' teaching about the Sabbath:
10And He was (G)teaching in one of the synagogues on the Sabbath.
11And there was a woman who for eighteen years had had (H)a sickness caused by a spirit; and she was bent double, and could not straighten up at all.
12When Jesus saw her, He called her over and said to her, "Woman, you are freed from your sickness."
13And He (I)laid His hands on her; and immediately she was made erect again and began (J)glorifying God.
14But (K)the synagogue official, indignant because Jesus (L)had healed on the Sabbath, began saying to the crowd in response, "(M)There are six days in which work should be done; so come during them and get healed, and not on the Sabbath day."
15But (N)the Lord answered him and said, "You hypocrites, (O)does not each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or his donkey from the stall and lead him away to water him?
16"And this woman, (P)a daughter of Abraham as she is, whom (Q)Satan has bound for eighteen long years, should she not have been released from this bond on the Sabbath day?"
17As He said this, all His opponents were being humiliated; and (R)the entire crowd was rejoicing over all the glorious things being done by Him.
Wow. Let me tell you how this is taught in Hebrew School. "So, the New Testament sets up this strawman. They claim that Jews will let someone die on the Sabbath rather than heal them, despite a clear hierarchy of laws in the Bible which stipulates precisely the opposite. Then, Jesus saves the day, and from this they do not conclude,as the Jews did, that life is more important than the Sabbath. They conveniently conclude that the Sabbath is a small thing overall. Obey it, unless there's a football game on."
I always thought that was a bit hyperbolic. No one would read it that way, right?
Thanks for that.
Anon,
I'm not sure what you're saying.
At Hebrew school they teach about what Jesus said or did? That's interesting.
But your answer seems to reflect that Christians resent Jews or try to demonize them or want to cast them as the villains. It's just not so . . . not in any church or Christian group I've ever been a part of. That was the interesting part of the controversy surrounding the Passion of the Christ . . . I think the Israelites or Jews--though certainly real, were just an archetype of mankind and the Jewish religious leaders in Jesus' sights were archetypes of legalistic religious leaders.
Which reminds of a scene in my favorite movie at present, Fiddler on the Roof. The Communist/Atheist/Totalitarian pol-- when pressuring an underling to conduct a pogrom, refers to the Jews as "Jesus killers." That's atheist, totalitarian verbiage, not Evangelical Christian verbiage.
"At Hebrew school they teach about what Jesus said or did? That's interesting."
Why would you find it strange that Jews study the most popularly published book on the planet? Not as gospel, but as the guiding text of a large faith.
The point, simply, is that your argument for not following the sabbath as commanded in the Old testament is that Jesus helped the sick while others stood by. Read your text again and tell me how that does not demonize the Jews while offering a convenient reason (stretching logic) to disobey the original commandments.
I agree that the discussions of Peter and Paul make great exception to many Old Testament proclamations, but regularly quoting only the commandments and one sentence on homosexuality seems a bit...selective.
Well we don't study, for example, Islam in Christian School. Maybe in some comparative religions context or apologetics or evangelism, but not really much beyond that. Frankly, Judaism is a little different because Christianity has its roots in that faith, but other religions aren't in the core curriculum, if you will.
The analogy I've always heard used is that when you're trying to teach a bank teller how to spot counterfeit bills (in the olden days), you teach them as much as possible about the real thing. The ways to counterfeit something are unlimited, but . . .
No, my point about not following the Sabbath is that Jesus said that the spirit of the law is the key, not letter. And He also taught that it is impossible to follow the law to perfection, so we need a savior or sacrifice. He presented Himself as the eternal sacrifice for sin. And taught that the Law's purpose was merely to drive us to God for salvation.
It is part of human nature to want to take credit for what we earn or get, and it is part of human nature to want to systematize and compartmentalize and routinize our relationship with Him--I guess because it makes us feel like we're in control or makes us feel less accountable to a "person." I think that was the point of the person we perceive to be the Messiah coming to earth.
But there's no question that Jesus' reputation and actions could be spun to make every human look like a demon. That was kind of His purpose, but it's not like He didn't offer forgiveness for how deficient we were. If we had been around (instead of the Jews at the time) we would have come off just as badly. So, no, I don't think that the purpose (or the effect) of the New Testament is to demonize a particular group of people.
what a freakshow
HBK
Keats,
It took you nine months to birth that profound contribution to the discussion?
yeah right.
obviously, I just happened to stumble upon a circus.
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